Comments on: Vaccines, Fetal Tissues and Other Considerations

By: a new era » Vaccines and abortion, revisited

a new era » Vaccines and abortion, revisited — Mon, 12 Dec 2005 02:33:45 +0000

[...] friends, culture and society

The topic has returned, this time over at This Classical Life. I refer you to my previous post on September 3, 2004. I st [...]

By: Phil

Phil — Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:07:37 +0000

One small thing about the immunity from breastfeeding. The antibodies you pass in breast milk is only one type of antibody, which is NOT the type that is induced in vaccination. Those antibodies, IgA antibodies, are known to do the job of mucosal protection (meaning GI/resp tract protection, your first-line defense, if you will), and are only passed on passively from mom. The child’s immune system does not know how to make those antibodies yet because the child has not exposed itself to the actual bug. They’re not the same sort of active immune response that you would want for a robust and fuller immunity to things like measles.

I am fully in support of your decisions to breastfeed longer than the average US citizen. I think most people should breastfeed children much longer than they do. I just want to make sure people understand the mechanisms that are at work.

By: Miz Booshay

Miz Booshay — Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:35:11 +0000

What a great discussion.
Thank you all!

Donna

By: TulipGirl

TulipGirl — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:35:15 +0000

Kristen, it was very important to me to pursue extended breastfeeding with our youngest, because of our move to Ukraine when he was 12 months. He was very healthy the whole time we were there, and I'm certain the breastfeeding antibodies played a key role. Serina, here's a delayed vax schedule, if you are interested.

By: Phil

Phil — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:15:02 +0000

Oh yeah, just so everyone knows, big studies have shown that the thimerosal (mercury preservative, which is no longer in MMR) was actually associated with a slightly DECREASED risk of autism (the risk ratio was something like 0.94 if you got MMR with thimerosal).

By: Phil

Phil — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:03:12 +0000

I agree that we all have a moral obligation to speak out against new stem cell lines, but I do not see a problem with new research on existing stem cell lines. In case there are any readers who do not know me, I will state for the record that I do not believe abortion to be an option except in the situation where the mother’s life is clearly threatened (e.g. ectopic pregnancies). As such, retrieving new stem cell lines from abortions happening today is not an option, and I do oppose research done using such methods.

So to sum up until I have more information, PLEASE vaccinate your kids with MMR, and other vaccines that we already have, not merely for your child, but for everyone that comes in contact with your child, like other pregnant mothers. PLEASE oppose new fetal stem cell lines derived from abortions.

By: kristen

kristen — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:58:00 +0000

I don’t think the abortions were done *just* to collect the tissue, but I do think it might have been a factor in encouraging so many women to abort fetuses that might have been exposed and had CRS upon birth. I continue to agree with you about the moral complicity *in the MMR case* but I do think that as the practice is ongoing, we do have a moral obligation to let vaccine researchers and manufacterers know that we won’t stand for them to develop vaccinations in this manner when there are other ways to reach the same end.

Our pediatrician delays all his patients a bit himself by never giving more than 3 vax a visit, and we plan on not starting Lexi’s until she is at least 3 months old, which should push her back significantly on their schedule so that her 1 year vaxes (MMR and Varicella) would be about 18 months at earliest. Pertussis is a concern, so I like DTaP to be close to on schedule. My doctor is super comfortable with that, as they did delay MMR in that office until 2 years old for several years when the initial mercury scare came out and he just wants her fully vaccinated at some point in her toddler years, not necessarily on the AAP schedule. Since I *really* breastfeed a lot more often and longer than the average mother, I am also not as concerned with decreased immunity. I know it happens to some degree, but I’ve seen Kate ward off colds that Mike and I get nursing 4 times a day at a year, so… I know it is still some amount of protection.

By: Phil

Phil — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:56:35 +0000

I finally had the chance to read the Vatican document completely, and while I appreciate certain aspects of the analysis, I still feel as though they do not deal with the larger question that I pose above – the nature of our material cooperation in evil whenever we derive all sorts of goods from remote events. I feel as though my examples above are good examples of how this could be taken to ridiculous logical extremes, leading up to all sorts of theological implications regarding God’s use of evil and the good that results from that evil that does benefit us.

By: Phil

Phil — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:38:10 +0000

unfortunately, articles that old are not accessible online, and there doesn’t seem to be anything more available online except people citing the studies (mostly people opposed to the use of the vaccines). If you’ll give me some time, I’ll try to find the actual articles, and read up on them. My impression has been, and continues to be, that the abortions were not done for the reason of donating the tissue. They weren’t spontaneous abortions either.

Again, the question returns to the degree of complicity we have for ANY evil committed in the past that results in clear good for many of us in the present. Where is the line drawn? Why? What other goods are people who decide against using the vaccine willing to forego to not be complicit in other evils?

By: kristen

kristen — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:44:12 +0000

G. Sven, S. Plotkin and K. McCarthy, Gamma Globulin Prophylaxis; Inactivated Rubella Virus; Production and Biological Control of Live Attenuated Rubella Virus Vaccines, American Journal of Diseases of Children, vol. 118, August 1969

By: Phil

Phil — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:12:27 +0000

Serina,

Out of curiousity, why are you delaying vaccinations and not outright refusing them?

Secondly, delaying is not recommended because concentrations of maternal antibodies drop off significantly around 6 months of age, leaving a child with little immunity to this diseases. While it may not be fatal for your child, the fact that your child has one of these preventable diseases also means your child can transmit it to someone else, who MAY be very seriously affected by it. Vaccines aren’t just for the child who is vaccinated, but for the general population as well.

By: Phil

Phil — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:11:10 +0000

What journal articles did they cite? I can try to get the original articles, now that I’m back on my computer with my school’s VPN library access.

By: kristen

kristen — Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:55:38 +0000

Everything I’ve read says the contrary. The MMR case is well documented, they were advising women during the Rubella outbreak in the mid ’60s to abort babies that might be born with Congenital Rubella syndrome and the 27th fetus they tried actually had the virus. According to websites that cite medical journal articles, that particular abortion was elected by parents who said they had too many children already.

By: stephanie

stephanie — Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:25:52 +0000

I’m confused. My Catholic ped–8 kids type Catholic–says that the cells were from spontaneously aborted fetuses. He emphatically said that he researched it because he would not want to endorse anything that promotes abortion culture. Has anyone else heard this?

By: kristen

kristen — Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:08:46 +0000

Phil,
Takahashi is an MMR vaccine used in Asia and Europe derived from a rabbit cell line. One of the Catholic groups is trying to get the FDA to approve it for importation (in the event of an outbreak) but I doubt it will happen.

Serina,
I think you can get the M and M but not the R seperately, last time I checked.